At least 48 million Americans are food insecure, Congress just cut $200 billion from SNAP, and the upcoming Farm Bill could make things even worse. But Rep. Jim McGovern (D-Mass.) believes we have an opportunity to fight back.
McGovern joins EWG co-Founder and President Ken Cook in today’s episode to break down what's really happening with America's food assistance programs, why new work requirements are kicking struggling families off benefits, and how farm subsidies enrich corporations while small farmers go bankrupt. Whose interests is Congress really serving?
While special interests are already lobbying hard for the next farm bill, McGovern believes people power is more powerful than the people in power.
If we can find billions for bailouts of Argentina and tax cuts for billionaires, but claim we're too broke to feed hungry Americans, we should probably check our math.
Disclaimer: This transcript was compiled using software and may include typographical errors.
Ken: Hi, it's Ken Cook and I'm having another episode. Today we're diving into one of the most troubling policy changes happening in Washington right now. And yes, it’s challenging to pick just one, but, uh, I'll continue to have episodes, as you know. So there's no limit.
The actions and policies of this administration do reveal exactly where its priorities lie, and guess what — it's not about your best interest or your neighbor's best interest — unless your neighbor was in the Epstein files. But before I get into it, and speaking of episodes, I've been heartbroken, outraged, and have lots of other heavy feels about what this administration and specifically ICE are doing to our communities, our safety, our, our human rights.
Our government is supposed to protect the vulnerable among us, not attack them. Which is why my guest and what he is fighting for is so important. And of course, it's also more evidence that I'm quite a big deal to have a member of Congress on. Today, I'm joined by Massachusetts Congressman Jim McGovern, our first member of Congress to come on the show, and he's one of the members I most admire.
Congress recently cut $200 billion in SNAP benefits. Now SNAP benefits are also known as the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, also known as food stamps formerly. That's the Federal Government's Primary Food Assistance program for low income Americans, and as one of the wealthiest nations in the world we're cutting that program now.
Think about that for a moment. We're taking food off the plates of 48 million food insecure Americans who live in households that mostly work, including working families, veterans, elderly citizens. We're doing that to pay for immigration rates. We're telling parents they can't feed their kids so we can expand detention facilities.
We're saying a nutrition benefit that amounts to two bucks per person per meal is too generous, but we're giving basically unlimited funding for enforcement operations, and lately, murder, that that's just okay. Representative Jim McGovern is someone who's been fighting these battles in Congress for years and never backs down from speaking truth about whose interests are really being served.
Congressman McGovern, it's so great to see you. Thanks for joining. I appreciate your time.
Jim: Well, Ken, it's great to be with you and, uh, I'm a big fan of yours and the Environmental Working Group and, uh, all the people who are associated with you. And I, I, I appreciate your work and. So I want to pay all those compliments back to you.
So thank you for having me.
Ken: Well, you're very kind and I know we'll be in the foxhole together, coming up with the Farm Bill, if not other occasions. But I have to start by — not many environmental groups worry about the SNAP program, but this is one that does, and we always have. And we've tried some things in the Farm Bill to expand it, floor votes and other campaigns over the years, it's tough to do.
But now we're, we're at a point where I am, uh, I'm as concerned about this as I am any other environmental priority that EWG deals with because I think food is part of the environment. And today is the first day when we're going to be applying the work requirements to SNAP. This is something we were upset about as an idea that was moving through.
Largely driven, obviously by Republican agendas, beginning last summer, and found its way into the Big Beautiful Bill. And this is not a beautiful thing. And I'm speaking to someone who, by the way, did the SNAP challenge not so many years ago and tried to live for, eat for a while on, on the SNAP budget. Do I remember that correctly? I think right?
Jim: Yeah, I did. Yeah. No, and um, look, the narrative out there that my friends on the Republican side and this administration push are just false. I mean, they make it seem like the SNAP benefit is this incredibly overly generous benefit that, you know, people can buy lobster tails and filet mignon with, the bottom line is on average is about $2 per person per meal.
That's it. I mean, yeah, you then the other narrative is that people on the benefit are, are somehow not documented US citizens. That's just a lie. You, I mean, immigrants aren't eligible for this. In fact, even most legal immigrants no longer are eligible for SNAP. These are US citizens. You know, then you hear them say, well, people should just get a job.
Well, you know, the majority of able-bodied people on the benefit actually work. And sometimes they're working, they're working more than one job, but they don't earn enough to be able to put food on the table, you know, to support their family. So, you know, the idea that a, a, a nutrition benefit, that something to help people put food on the table is controversial, tells you how screwed up this place is.
I mean, it really does. Yeah. I mean, the idea that we have to argue over that. It's insane. In the big ugly bill that they passed, they cut SNAP by about $200 billion. That will come into effect right after the election. As you mentioned, these work requirements that the Trump administration put into place, they're already beginning to take effect.
Yeah. And people who thought they had the benefit are now finding out that they're no longer eligible. These are, you know, mothers and fathers with teenage kids, uh, veterans. I mean, I go on, on and on and on.
Ken: Elderly Americans,
Jim: Right.
Ken: Yeah.
Jim: You know, this is nuts. Now we have money to, you know, bail out Argentina. What, $30 billion?
Ken: Yeah.
Jim: They have money to go into Venezuela. I guess we have money to pay every person in Greenland, a hundred thousand dollars a piece so that he, Trump can own Greenland. But when it comes to this, we don't have the money. We have money for tax cuts for multimillionaires and billionaires, but when it comes to making sure people have enough to eat, they cry poor mouth.
I mean, we have 48 million Americans, 48 million who are food insecure or hungry. I'm ashamed of that. Everybody should be ashamed of that.
Ken: Absolutely. And you know the other element of this that I think people don't get… they think the benefit's lavish and as you just described, it's really a few bucks per person, per meal.
It is also to get into the program, you are brutally means tested, right? If you're a family of three or four making, you know, just maybe 30,000 bucks or maybe — you're too rich.
Jim: Right
Ken: — to get into SNAP. And if you, and heaven forbid that you put aside some savings, right? Like we're telling everyone to do, or you have a car that works, all of these can count against your eligibility. It's shocking to me.
Jim: Yeah. If you earn $1 more than what the cutoff is, you're outta luck. You lose everything.
You know, look, rather than cutting this program and rather than, you know, throwing more people off with these ridiculous work requirements, which again, don't take into account that life doesn't fit into these nice, neat categories.
Gray's not black and white. There's a lot of gray here. But rather than that, we gotta be talking about how we make the program, you know, provide an adequate benefit for people. We ought to talk about how to gradually kind of wean people off the benefit if they wanna make more money. I mean, we ought to make sure that we're addressing what real life is like for millions of Americans, and that would be a constructive discussion, but that's not what we're having here.
I'm on the agriculture committee and I'm also on the rules committee, so I hear a lot of banter about SNAP all the time. And you know, and sometimes I, I'll be honest with you, I feel like. My head's about to explode.
Ken: Yeah.
Jim: There are so many lies, so much misinformation. And we're the United States Congress.
I mean, you know, this should be a place where truth—
Ken: Yeah.
Jim: — prevails. Where we talk about facts and not about these false narratives that maybe appeal to some right wing group that's aim is to destroy the program. We gotta, we gotta talk about real life and we gotta be honest about it.
Ken: Yeah. And you know, some other elements of this debate that have, have troubled me, zeroing out, or I guess mostly zeroing out SNAP education, which is the element that was designed to help SNAP beneficiaries participate and learn how to make the most of their benefit for, for their health.
And uh, so that's been cut and then the movement to further restrict SNAP and I, I get it from a nutritional standpoint, but I just don't believe that the people who mostly are espousing it are aimed at improving nutritional welfare. I think it's about driving up the negatives of the program, which is to say, we've got cut out all this spending on soda pop and junk food.
I get it. We all get it. Yeah. And I've talked to Bob Greenstein about it and his green Bob Greenstein, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities was the model for EWG back in the day. I knew Bob in the seventies and eighties, and I always aspired to that level of evidence.
Jim: Right.
Ken: And concern and real world engagement with real world problems and being realistic about it.
But this whole notion of basically demonizing low income kids. And here's what I think about. I think about in the grocery store, I'm in the line and someone in front of me, or behind me has a little kid who's put a candy bar
Jim: Right
Ken: In the cart and at checkout he and his mom or dad are humiliated
Jim: Right
Ken: At that moment, and maybe they're thinking, maybe this SNAP thing isn't worth it. We don't enroll everybody who's eligible already, rather than let's educate, let's, let's make this an opportunity to get people on a healthier path. What, what, what's your take on it, Jim?
Jim: You know, I'm, I'm with you. I mean, right.
I mean, we, we, we shame people who, um, are enrolled in the SNAP program. And I think there's a view that if we shame you enough, you won't wanna be under benefit, that you'll opt out, which means that you'll have less money to be able to afford healthy and nutritious food. I don't, the people who advocate for all these new restrictions, I guess my question to them would, have you been in a supermarket lately?
Ken: Yeah.
Jim: I was in Worcester, Massachusetts where I live, and I saw an elderly woman, um, putting back, uh, groceries on the shelf. Yeah. I went up to talk to her and she's like, look it, I, I had a finite budget. I can't get as much today as I did a year ago.
Ken: Yeah.
Jim: So I'm putting things back, and that's heartbreaking to see.
Ken: I agree.
Jim: And by the way, a lot of people who are on SNAP live in areas where there are not supermarkets, so they end up having to rely on the corner store, which is, you know, has limited refrigeration — doesn't always, always carry, you know, fresh fruits and vegetables and so people don't have access to it.
And then transportation is expensive. And you know, we have food deserts and I go on and on and on. Look, all this stuff is solvable, right?
Ken: Yeah.
Jim: And I also, you know, believe that our medical institutions ought to be playing a role in helping to promote better nutrition. We ought to have food prescriptions.
You know, I was, I was recently visiting a, a food pantry in Revere, Massachusetts, that Mass General Hospital and the BO Greater Boston Food Bank has kind of collaborated on, it's a plant-based food pantry and they have cooking classes there to help people learn how to be able to make all these different dishes with the food that's there, it’s wildly popular.
But if it weren't there, the people who go to this health clinic wouldn't have easy access to the foods that they can get there. And so, you know, what I like about the model is, is that there's an understanding that making it more difficult for people to get access to good nutritious food. You know, making good nutritious food more affordable means that people have to rely on not so good and nutritious food.
Ken: Yeah.
Jim: And that results in all kinds of healthcare issues and at higher healthcare costs. And people end up with chronic conditions that they have to deal with for a lifetime. So if you wanna save money, if that's what the goal is here, you know, then let's make sure that the benefit is adequate enough for people to be able to buy good food.
Let’s embrace programs like Double Up Box program where, you know, states kind of come in and, you know, if you buy, uh, local products that are made at that, that are grown at local farms, you get, you know, double the value of your SNAP dollars. Let's go down that road, let's partner with our hospitals and let's, let's do this.
Right. Look, I say this all the time, like a broken record, like hunger is a political condition, right? We know what we need to do to solve the issue. We have the infrastructure, we have the money, we have the money. We have everything but the political will. And to not address this issue more effectively, you know, to continue to demonize the SNAP program, to continue to demonize people who are on the program, you know, you're not saving money.
You may be cutting money in this program, but you are creating a whole bunch of other costs. You know, kids who go to school who are hungry don't learn. There's a cost of that. Workers who go to work who haven't been eating on a regular basis are less productive. Senior citizens who take their prescriptions on an empty stomach, they end up in the emergency room.
I mean, so, enough of this, enough of this. I mean, I don't know what's happening in this country, but we're not having intelligent discussions on matters like this. And I think there's a group of people, including some of my colleagues, that just believe that hunger is inevitable, you know? Um, and so, you know, rather than try to fix it, you know, let's just ignore it.
Make believe it doesn't exist. You know, the administration has, uh, canceled USDA's monthly, you know, kind of food security statistics. I think the way they think they're gonna end hunger is by not giving you the, the statistics about who's food insecure or who's hungry.
This is insane. This doesn't make any sense.
Ken: And it's definitely not making America healthy again. That's the thing that eats at, one of the things that eats at me is the hypocrisy there.
Jim: Yeah. Whatever happened to RFK Jr's Make America Healthy Again? I mean, we're about to take up a Farm Bill that's not only not gonna restore the cutbacks in Snap, also, you know, it's a gift to the pesticide industry and to every bad player in the agricultural field. And I, you know, I just would say to those people who were attracted to him on Make America Healthy Again, look at the fine print, look who's gonna benefit from the Farm Bill. And it's not about making America healthy again.
It's the same old, same old. And I think people are sick of this shit, to be blunt. Yeah, I really do. I — to those who were attracted to RFK Jr on Make America Healthy Again. We all wanna make America healthy again. Let's do it together. That's not what they're doing. You're getting taken for a ride.
Ken: I think that's right. I think, uh, unfortunately, a lot of the, the MAHA rank and file are seen as useful idiots by the Trump administration that will go along with things because they don't know any better, including cutting off information. So we've been through a number of farm bills together, and they're always tense, they're always, uh, high stakes.
But going into this next one, and I, I should say to people, you know, this is where we, we reauthorize, we renew the government authority in in law that pays for all the subsidy programs, pays for snap, pays for conservation programs. It's an omnibus piece of legislation. Uh, it keeps getting extended, but it is must pass.
You have to do something to keep or these programs don't work. You're on the agriculture committee, which I think when you were coming up in the world, you probably thought someday if, if things work out right for me, I'll be on the agriculture committee. Probably not what you were thinking where you were from for Massachusetts.
But thank God you're there. So as a kind of a reformer. I think fair to say, within the committee ranks relative to the rest of the members of that committee, who mostly get on there to shovel money out the door to the farm, subsidy interests, how do you size up this coming Farm Bill? They've devastated SNAP already.
Trump just goes directly to USDA at like a piggy bank and spends billions of dollars to commodity interest to where the biggest farmers get the most money. What are the politics now as we head into this, Jim, and what would you say to people that would help them realize these farm bill debates are important and, and you ought to pay attention and maybe get involved?
Jim: Well, I would say these are important debates because it impacts every single person in this country, whether you realize it or not. And in this country we have 50 states and we have, uh, farms in all 50 states. And so we need a 50 State Farm policy and we have to make sure that, you know, the benefits in a Farm Bill, uh, in, in terms of our farmers just don't help corporate farmers, but help the small and medium sized farmers, which by the way, are good environmentalists, which are good stewards of the land, which care about members of our community.
And look, farmers are getting screwed by this administration. Totally. Trump's tariff policies, you know, are devastating. Uh, farm bankruptcies are going through the roof. And so there needs to be a bailout. I mean, that's, I, I think the administration realizes that because their, their policies are killing our, our farmers, um, of all sizes, quite frankly.
But I wanna make sure that the benefits, again, just don't go to the farmers. Farmers that are gigantic, that are big corporate farmers, but they go to all of our farmers at the same time. The nutrition part of it is important. Again, if we wanna Make America Healthy Again, we need to make sure you know that we are, you know, uh, supporting nutrition programs that will allow people to afford food in this country.
Yeah, I mean, the price of groceries, the issue of affordability is at the top of the list. And the other thing about the Farm Bill, we, we, we, why we wanna pay attention is we wanna support and be wind at the back of good environmental policies with regard to farming and agriculture.
I don't want a giveaway to the pesticide industry. I don't want the things in a Farm Bill that, you know, basically, um, overrule state laws on things that quite frankly constitute a good environmental approach to agriculture. We have come a long, long way. Uh, we have a long way to go, but let's not undo the good that has been done in this country, the good that has been done, not just at the federal level, but mostly at the state level.
But let's understand that we want to help our farmers, but we also want to, you know, make sure that people in this country don't go hungry. We're the richest country in the history of the world. You know, we gotta be able to do this better.
Ken: Yeah.
Jim: Whether you are you're liberal or conservative or somewhere in between, we all ought to be able to rally around a Farm Bill that, you know, again, supports ending hunger, that supports our farmers, that supports our small and medium sized farmers, and that is loyal to good environmental practices.
Who could be against that? I'll tell you who's against it. Big pocketed, special interests that make money off of exploiting some of these programs that end up, you know, defending these polluters. People who destroy our land and who, who don't give a damn about whether anybody goes hungry or not.
Ken: Yeah. And my sense is we, we don't want the next Farm Bill to shortchange nutrition.
That's gonna be a fight. We want to try and direct the money to the farmers that really need it most. We don't wanna make things in the environment worse, right? We wanna make them better with federal spending. We want less pesticide, less erosion, fewer water quality problems. So this is the big question.
I think we have a lot of members on the Democratic side. There used to be a time when the Sherwood Boehlerts and others in the world, it feels like fossil history to the two of us, I think sometimes probably Jim, but in looking back in the fossil record, we did have a time when you had members on the Republican side who saw these greater good arguments that you just laid out.
Do you think, the grip is loosening a little bit for the ideology that brought us the Big Beautiful Bill, or are they gonna stick with that same approach and not let members vote their conscience or vote their districts or whatever? If it comes down to a, a fight between the agenda you laid out and the agenda driven by the agriculture committee mostly.
Jim: Yeah. Look, the Trump administration, you know, behaves like a bunch of bullies. Uh, and they scare the hell out of rank of file Republican members. They do.
Ken: Yeah.
Jim: The people who are speaking out and, you know, saying things that quite frankly represent 'em. Uh, you know, the time that you were talking about where there, there was Sherwood Boehlert or you know, the others Republicans that were.
You know, we come together with Democrats and we get things over the finish line. Those Republicans that are speaking out right now tend to be the, the ones who are retiring.
Ken: Yeah.
Jim: But you know, it's good to have, have some of them with us. But look, I think the important thing for people who are listening to this is that you have a voice.
I was a history major, uh, in college. I used to have a teacher, he would end every class by saying the same thing: the world will not get better on its own. And when I was taking his class, I didn't know what the hell he was talking about, but I do now. You know, I mean, nothing changes, um, unless, you know, like-minded people come together and demand change.
People have power, and you know, the power of the people is more powerful than the people in power. I, mean, you've heard that phrase. I really believe that. It's when people don't pick up the phone and call their representative. It's when people don't, you know, send a postcard or a letter, or don't go to a town meeting or raise these issues.
You know, that's when people's power just kind of dissipates. We all wanna make sure we have a good food supply. We all want to make sure that our farmers are supported, that we are pursuing good environmentally sound agricultural policies because we care about the environment. There's no reason why we can't have all of those things, and I think it's important for, for people to, you know, to understand that, you know, their voice matters.
One of the reasons why a lot of my Republican friends are no longer doing town halls is because they don't wanna listen to the pushback. But what they're missing is that just because they're not showing up and not hearing the pushback, that doesn't mean that people aren't feeling it. So I, I mean, call offices, make appointments with your elected officials.
You know, show up at town meetings. Follow the stuff online and be engaged. I mean, we can make the world better. We, we really can. I know right now it's tough because every time you turn on the news, there's like a thousand things that drive you crazy. I think that's a deliberate tactic to sideline you to say, oh, there's nothing I can do.
It's hopeless. I'm, oh, I'm gonna pull the shade, wake me up when it's all over. The trouble is if we're not engaged now, some of the decisions that are gonna be made will be irreversible. Will be irreversible. You know, you can only mess up the environment so many times, and we've messed it up a lot.
Let's understand. It is important. It is important to be involved, to be engaged and to use your voice.
Ken: That's right. Because if you don't show up, the vacuum gets filled by people who are paid to show up. And those people are paid by, by special interest.
Jim: Lemme lemme tell you, the pesticide lobby is writing out big PAC checks.
As we speak. So you know, there's a financial interest for some of these members on the ag committee to go along with whatever they want, so they don't represent lots of people. They got lots of money. So let's counter that with our voices.
Ken: That's exactly right. Well, Congressman McGovern, thank you so much for your time.
I look forward to seeing you in DC sometime soon, I hope. And, uh, I just have to say when, when I think of the giants that I've been privileged to work alongside in Congress over the years, you, you are right up there, my friend. I, I gotta say with all of the leaders that have spoken out on these issues, over time, you inspire me every day.
I follow you very closely. It's been a, a pleasure to have a few minutes with you and we'll be right there again in the trenches. Jim.
Jim: Well, Ken, thank you, uh, for all that you do and, uh, keep the faith.
Ken: All right, brother. Thank you to Representative Jim McGovern, a hero of mine, for joining today, and thank you out there for listening.
If you'd like to learn more, be sure to check out our show notes for additional links to take a deeper dive into today's discussion. Make sure to follow our show on Instagram @KenCooksPodcast. And if you're interested in learning more about ewg, head over to ewg.org or check out the ewg Instagram account @EnvironmentalWorkingGroup.
If this episode resonated with you or you think someone you know would benefit from it, send it along. The best way to make positive change and we need to be making positive change is to start as a community with your community. Today's episode was produced by the astonishing Beth Rowe and Mary Kelly.
Our show's theme music is by Moby. Thank you Moby, and thank you all out there for listening.
